Brig. Gen. Charles McGee and the Tuskegee Airmen

Tuskegee Airman Charles McGee in Conversation (2020 Vice Adm. Donald D. Engen Flight Jacket Night)
September 30, 2020

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[Michael Hankins] Before the United States entered the Second World War, the US Army did not permit African Americans

to fly in combat aviation roles. Due to significant political and legal pressure exerted by activists and the press,

the US government realized the need for change. Despite the Army's resistance, by 1941,

the Roosevelt administration and Congress had compelled the military to allow African American combat pilots,

eventually known as the Tuskegee Airmen, to fly in racially segregated units. Despite their achievements,

the Tuskegee Airmen were not perceived as equals by many of their fellow service members. They had to continually fight

against segregationist policies, both on and off base, often at risk to their own careers and lives,

all while continuing to prove the color of their skin had no bearing on how effectively they could fly

and fight for their country. After the war, continued political pressure from activist groups and the press

prompted President Truman to order the racial integration of the military in 1948.

Despite the progress of serving in integrated units during and after the Korean War, African Americans were often underrepresented

throughout the Air Force and were often denied high-profile assignments. Brigadier General Charles McGee's career spanned

this entire period. From flying with the Tuskegee Airmen in segregated units during World War II, to piloting an F-4 Phantom

in the Vietnam War with a white officer in the backseat, to living to see an African American as chief of staff

of the US Air Force in 2020, General McGee has witnessed a sweeping period of massive,

if unfinished, transformation. Throughout that time, McGee's career has been exemplary.

He flew over 100 combat missions in each of the three wars he served in for a total of 409 missions.

He shot down a German Focke-Wulf 190 in combat in 1944. He commanded the 16th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron

during the Vietnam War. And McGee is highly decorated, earning a Legion of Merit twice and the distinguished Flying Cross three times.

In conversation with General McGee this evening is the 14th secretary of the Smithsonian Institution,

Lonnie Bunch. Bunch started his Smithsonian career at the National Air and Space Museum in 1978

and later became the founding director of the Smithsonian's National Museum of African American History and Culture.

A widely published author, Bunch has written on topics ranging from the black military experience, the American presidency

and all black towns in the American West. We are honored to have Brigadier General McGee

and Secretary Bunch as the distinguished guests of the 2020 National Air and Space Society's

Flight Jacket Night. Moderating tonight's discussion, please welcome the John and Adrienne Mars Director

of the National Air and Space Museum, Dr. Ellen Stofan.

[Ellen Stofan] Hello, I'm Ellen Stofan, the John and Adrian Mars Director of the Smithsonian's National Air and Space Museum.

Thank you for joining us virtually for the National Air and Space Society's annual Vice Admiral Donald D. Engen Flight Jacket Night.

This particular event holds special significance to those of us here at the museum. It's named for Don Engen, one of my predecessors,

who was the director of the Air and Space Museum in the 1990s. Naming this lecture for him is our way of honoring

his commitment to the museum and to our country. Flight Jacket Night is one of the many ways

we show our appreciation for our supporters in the National Air and Space Society and beyond

who help us to achieve our goal of inspiring the next generation of innovators and explorers.

Your support is so valued. In the more than 20 years since we founded NASM,

our members have contributed $21 million to support our mission.

And with our transformation of our location in Washington DC underway, that support has never been more important.

Thank you also to our friends who've joined us from across the Smithsonian for this event,

including members of the Friends of the Smithsonian, the Castle Circle, the James Smithson Society,

the Air and Space Legacy Society, the National Museum of African American History and Cultures

Membership Society, and the National Museum of the American Indian Membership Society.

Welcome to all of you. Get ready to learn what makes the stories we tell here at Air and Space so special.

I'm very excited to moderate this conversation tonight. We have two incredible speakers here to share their stories.

Thank you to Lonnie Bunch, the secretary of the Smithsonian for joining us for this conversation and lending his perspective

on the incredible career of tonight's featured speaker. Brigadier General Charles McGee is an inspiration.

It is as simple as that. He is a true hero. And did you know that he took a special flight

to celebrate his 100th birthday and actually piloted the plane?

General McGee has been such a great friend to the National Air and Space Museum for years.

From book signings to talks at our family days, he has always been enthusiastic about connecting

with our visitors and sharing his experiences as a Tuskegee Airman with others. And we are incredibly grateful

that he is here with us tonight to do just that. Before I get started with my questions,

a reminder that there will be an audience Q and A later on in the program. So as you listen to General McGee

and Secretary Bunch's stories, think of what else you might want to ask. And I'm gonna start with a question for General McGee

Going way back to the beginning, what inspired and encouraged you to pursue

a career in aviation as your World War II service? Why did you want to fly?

[General McGee] Well, my actual looking back at what took place,

the best I can say is I was avoiding the draft. I learned to handle a rifle in ROTC.

Pershing Rifles was very pleasant, but I had my draft, because I was in school,

my draft board wasn't pulling my number. Had they called my number, I'm pretty sure at that time,

it would've been with a rifle on the ground, in the mud.

It turns out that because of Army policy, that they couldn't use a black pilot until,

because they had no black mechanics. The very first of the now called Tuskegee Airmen

were mechanics trained at the technical schools in New Field, Illinois.

That's how I heard about it. I think probably my ROTC instructor said, mechanics are all right and needed, but how about the pilot?

I passed the pilot exams and all I can say is after my first flight down at Tuskegee, Alabama

in the PT-17, I was hooked.

[Ellen] That's amazing.

You entered service in the US and then fought in Europe. As an African American, what was it like being in the Army,

an Army Air Force officer in a segregated America? And then what was it like in occupied Italy?

[General McGee] Well, fortunately we had good leader, good training and good leadership.

and our goal while we were in Italy was the mission. We weren't concerned, even though segregation went overseas,

we were, as I say, well-trained and well-equipped and had the leadership of Ben Davis during the,

they led us, second and first lieutenants, as I say we were anxious to maybe go happy hunting

and get a couple of kills so you can maybe become an ace. Our job was to help save American lives, and that we did.

So that was what was the focus.

It's interesting that when you look at that picture, a lot of Germans were fighting.

They were not necessarily fighting for Nazi-isms. Many were fighting for country.

But that's the happenstance of war and the circumstances.

[Ellen] So what kinds of missions did you fly in?

What aircraft were you flying?

[General McGee] Well, it's interesting.

And when we look at the Tuskegee experience, there are several phases, and of course the first is that of the first squadron,

the 99th Pursuit Squadron. All of us trained in the P-4 but they're the only ones that flew the P-4 in combat.

They went into North Africa, Sicily and into Italy.

It turns out that their first, as I said, the segregation, it went overseas, they weren't wanting more light.

And 33rd pilot group of commanders,

his recommendation is that they be sent to patrol Liberia. Well, how's your map studies from history?

Where was Liberia? Where were the Germans? I think you get the idea.

But it turns out that when the 332nd Fighter Group

combat run before, and they say, oh, you are gonna do some patrol work here

and fly the P-39 Airacobra. So we switched, still left the States on time in '43,

landing in Italy in '44, same time the 99th was moving from Sicily into Italy

to the 75th Fighter Group. 332nd Fighter Group arrived.

I was still flying there, P-40.

In the interdiction ground support. 332nd Fighter Group was flying P-39 Airacobra,

patrolling Naples Harbor waterways to the Anzio beachhead at the time.

But that didn't last very long because the 332nd Fighter Group

was one of four groups picked to begin the escort work that needed to save American lives.

Now they thought we had enough guns on our B-17s and B-24s to protect them from the German Air Force.

That wasn't the case. And of course, bomber completely destroyed. 10 American lives lost.

'cause there wasn't an interceptor, and picked up P-47 Thunderbolts.

Only had the Thunderbolt two or three months. Ended up P-51 Mustang in July of '44.

Wonderful aircraft. We built a P-51 for the British.

They put the Rolls-Royce Merlin engine, and we said, perfect. And we put it here as wonderful aircraft

of the day and time. So many, many more missions in P-51.

[Ellen] I even have a pair of shoes commemorating your P-51 Kitten from World War II.

[General McGee]  I brought them up there. I didn't put them on. (laughing)

[Ellen] What was your time like at Tuskegee? You talk a little bit about what was it like to be at Tuskegee training

before you went over?

[General McGee] Well, it's interesting because the South

wasn't a welcome place. Tuskegee, town of Tuskegee wasn't welcome. Fortunately, for Tuskegee, then Institute,

now Tuskegee University, that was really our home, and the airfield,

it was built about seven miles northwest of Tuskegee.

So the sheriff of Tuskegee wasn't a friend and we stayed out of town.

And fortunately I say we had, they didn't change the training standards, southeast training command treated us well.

And those aggregated, the focus was what was the mission and not on the segregation.

Fortunately, for those of us who had not grown up in the South, we had members in the Tuskegee program

who were born and raised and lived in the South. And they let us know where not to go buy gas or what parts of town to avoid.

So it all worked out well because the focus was on the mission, not the circumstances.

[Ellen] Yeah. Lonnie, if I can switch to you. What was the path for African Americans

to greater military participation during World War II, especially through the story of military aviation?

[Lonnie Bunch] I think it's important to realize that the Tuskegee Airmen are part of a long tradition of black involvement

in the military. I'm going back to the US colored troops, Buffalo soldiers, but it's the Tuskegee Airmen

that really epitomize what this was about. And that was the challenge of fighting

in order to get the right to fight, that the Tuskegee Airman, like many black military,

weren't considered appropriate to fight in the Army. That when they were drafted,

many of the African Americans were in service units. They were gonna unload things. They were going to be the sort of pick and shovel people.

But I think what happened is that there was a great desire by many people in America, especially African Americans

to say, we want to make sure African-Americans can participate actively in the war, and especially the Tuskegee Airmen,

because the belief was that if you could fly as fast

and fight as well as white troops, then equality would have to follow that.

So that the Tuskegee Airmen, in fact, all the military carried a double burden. They carried the burden of being the best they can

to fight for their country, but then they also carried the burden of representing a race.

And so what you see happened with the Tuskegee Airmen is that there's a lot of pressure that's put on the Roosevelt Administration.

You see black newspapers saying, give our boys a chance. You see many groups like the NAACP and others

see this as a civil rights moment. And so therefore that puts pressure

and begins to open the opportunity for the training at Tuskegee. But clearly even though the doors were open,

it was essential that the Tuskegee Airmen step through, that they showed their excellence,

and that that really allowed other parts of the African American community

to also participate in the war.

[Ellen] Yeah, so I guess with the Tuskegee Airmen, I mean, obviously they're incredibly exceptional

in their service, but are there a lot more stories around service in World War II and before

that we don't do a good job of telling?

[Lonnie Bunch] I think there's a lot of, there's a proud history of black involvement in the military, right? Whether it's talking about the role

that African American soldiers played in rescuing Teddy Roosevelt in the Battle of San Juan Hill.

But in World War II, what you have are groups like, oh, you've got tank units

that really are crucially successful to sort of breaking through the battle through France.

You also have things like the Red Ball Express. This is a group of men who drove the trucks

to bring supplies so close to the front lines that they risked their lives. You have many, many stories of African Americans

who participate in less glamorous ways, but are crucial to the success of the military experience.

But clearly it is the Tuskegee Airmen that in many ways carried the heaviest burden

and also opened the greatest doors by their success.

[Ellen] General McGee, what made you stay in the military

after World War II? What was it that made you want to continue your service?

[General McGee] That's not an easy question for me to answer because I fell, as I mentioned after my first flight,

I fell in love with flying. I kept good flying assignments, great opportunities.

The one thing, they had a preference statement for a period and my preference, I truly liked to be stationed

on the West Coast sometime. Never happened in 30 years.

But it was the joy of flying, and I kept getting opportunities that gave me that chance.

How and why, I don't think I can put my finger on the actual answer,

except that somebody said there, I was available to fill the need.

And this continued for 30 years. In fact, I actively flew 27 of my 30 years,

and that doesn't often happen.

[Ellen] What did you think when you heard about Truman's order in, executive order in 1948,

desegregating the US armed forces? How did that make you feel?

And then how did you react to that?

[General McGee] You know, that's good but it came,

first of all, let's say war end in '45. The Army never had changed their policy, period.

'47, the Air Force separated from the ground forces. And '47 studies said, you know,

we need to use people based on training and experience and where needed, not their happenstance of birth,

and we're not getting enough money to keep, then Lockbourne Airbase open and meet our requirements.

We need to integrate. The fact that Truman backed that from a national point of view was tremendous,

coming from the top powers in the country to make a statement like that.

And he wasn't very liked for doing it, but he saw the need in their direction

that the country should go. And that's what made it so important.

[Ellen] And for the audience who aren't totally appreciating this, 'cause we're just getting started here.

General McGee's career has covered three wars, 409 combat missions, over 6,000 flying hours,

over 1,100 combat flying hours. So we have a lot to talk about here. So as the Korean War began,

what was different from your experience in World War II, and what was the same?

[General McGee] Well, how I got there, because when we decided to support the Korean activity,

we didn't have jets in place. We had a lot of P-51 pilots, many had even been grounded,

and we had the planes available in Japan. So they grabbed P-51 pilots wherever you were.

And I had just gotten into the Philippines. Immediately moved base operations

to 44th Fighter Bomber Squadron, and we're in Japan picking up P-51.

In fact, my last flight in Europe was in November of '44,

what was it? Not January, but August of 1950. I'm going down the runway in Japan in a P-51.

No checkout, again, just the love of flying.

And unfortunately the training and ability that we had been given. And as I said again, as I pass on to young people now,

for whatever reason, I just loved flying. To be able to get in the air and loop roll, spin,

come back and put your feet on the ground. What's better? Wonderful experience.

And then the other thing is I like to pass it on. I have the opportunity to, back when it was cheapest,

it didn't cost so much to fly. And if a plane was in commission and you wanted to get some nighttime, you could go on and do it.

Pretty expensive to try to do it today, but taking off at sunset and climbing up to 45,000 feet,

see the sunset again, see the stars come up overhead is just tremendous, tremendous.

And it makes me realize, you know, we were human beings that are one small aspect in the mighty grand universe.

[Ellen] That we are. Lonnie, can you talk about the African Americans

that remained in service after World War II and the types of roles they filled in.

This whole integration of the military, how successful was it?

[Lonnie Bunch] Well, it is important to realize that part of the success of integration was because of the Tuskegee Airmen,

because of their success. But integration also occurred really out of both

a moral need from Truman's point of view, but also a political need. That you have African Americans moving from the South

into the cities, changing the political calculus. So suddenly there were democratic cities

that had more African Americans, and that was also part of the calculus of, how do we make sure we can keep political power.

But I think what's really amazing to me about the Tuskegee Airmen is that the leadership of this

really spreads out throughout the country. You've got people like Theo Davis Jr.

who stays in as a general. General Chappy James, he becomes one of the highest ranking officers

in the military. You've got General McGee. You have an awful lot of people who use their time

and become influential as role models, as leaders that sort of help the military change

because it didn't change overnight. In fact, you could make an argument that Korea is the first sort of integrated war.

And yet there were still a few black officers and many units were integrated at the large number,

but in the small segment, they were still segregated. And it's really not until Vietnam

that you see African American officers leading all kinds of troops

and sort of really fulfilling the dream of integration. I think it's also important to recognize that

for those who didn't stay in, like Coleman Young or Roscoe Brown, these are men whose careers

outside of the military were transforming. Coleman Young is one of the first black mayors

in the United States in Detroit. Roscoe Brown's an educator, becomes a media person that really opens doors for African Americans

in New York City. So in some ways, Tuskegee Airmen are crucially important

because what they did was more than integrate the military. What they did was open a door

that said the broader society needs to rethink its relationship with African Americans.

And that is an ongoing struggle. But the origin of it is in part

because of the success of the Tuskegee Airmen, both within the military and those that stepped away.

[Ellen] Now, one of the things Lonnie, oh I'm sorry. Go ahead General McGee.

[General McGee] I was just gonna say that's important because there was attitudes that we,

if we give them, we had their hands on the gun, we'd be fighting white America.

That didn't happen. And that was very key at the time,

that the focus was supporting your country. You know, the country had come out of 10 years

of the depression. The job opportunities in the war buildup became available.

Segregation didn't change, but the opportunities were slowly made available.

And the Black Americans participated just as they had in all phases of our country's experience.

But that carried forward and allowed what took civil rights movement in the 60s,

again, to change. Progress is not overnight.

Things happen slowly and there's still work to do from that point of view.

But I think fortunately we had those who didn't change segregation,

but believed in the opportunity. And I think that's what the Tuskegee Airmen experience

has passed on for all of the young folks, for our country's future, believing in the opportunity

and not listening to somebody tell you, you can't do something. Being willing to step forward and show that you can.

[Lonnie Bunch] And so much of what happens during the civil rights movement is often led by military men,

African Americans who've come out, Medgar Evers and others who basically tasted some freedom

in the military, recognize their own skills as leaders, and brought that back to say that it's time

for America to change. And so, in essence, what the Tuskegee Airmen does, what the military experience does,

it's a ripple of transformation that opens more opportunities for people

that have nothing to do with the military. And in essence, America becomes a profoundly different place

because of the success of people like the Tuskegee Airmen.

[Ellen] One of the things our curator Mike Hankins

recently wrote about the experiences at Freeman Fields and the history of activism that, and I was,

obviously we're in a time where there's a lot of activism happening right now. And I was really impressed to read about

the activism that the Tuskegee Airmen took part in to push their case, make sure they could participate,

be given that opportunity. And Lonnie, I don't know if you want to talk about that a little bit.

[Lonnie Bunch] Well, I think what's important is you've got,

the Tuskegee Airmen candidly are very special. They are better educated than many other people in the military.

They were officers. Many were college educated, so they were expectations.

And even though they understood that America was a segregated land, it wasn't sure they were gonna accept that.

And one of the best examples is the Freeman Field mutiny. It's called a mutiny, which is where basically Tuskegee Airmen officers

realized that they were being told to go to only a segregated officers' club.

And so many of the Tuskegee Airmen said, that's not acceptable. They went in. They were arrested.

They were sort of court-martialed. And what was so powerful though, is that really tens of, amongst 100 people,

signed on, of former Tuskegee Airman signed on to say, we're gonna support these people who are doing this.

So they risked their careers because they knew that was wrong. And what I think is 30 years earlier,

that kind of action wouldn't have happened and it wouldn't have happened successfully. Then as a result of that,

the Army has to rethink things. The NAACP is involved.

The military is involved and says, this is not right. And they basically didn't punish many of the men

who were involved in this. Three were court-martialed and two were acquitted. So in many ways, these men risked everything

to demand for fairness. So they fought for freedom in the air and they fought for freedom on the ground.

[Ellen] I want to make sure we get to Vietnam before we go to audience questions. So General McGee, what was it like commanding

the 16th Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron in Vietnam?

[General McGee] Well, it was a wonderful opportunity for me

because as I say, still enjoying flying and having a mission that was so important.

I was a tactical intelligence gathering, recurrent, no weapons.

Speed was our defense. Day and night operation. And to command a unit doing such an important mission.

Again, I was thrilled because I was flying. Still flying (laughs).

But fortunately performing a task that was so much needed

and important to our activity in the Vietnam experience.

It started, they needed the action. So they established two new tactical intelligence squadron,

got into the R-4 airplane together.

I took the squadron to Thailand,

I mean to Vietnam and the others were down going through training. Took the 12th Squadron to,

well I was in Vietnam, he was in Thailand. I get it straight (laughs).

But that's how that came about. But again, an important mission for our country,

opportunity for the training, training successful. Another step along the way

that you might say helped open doors.

[Ellen] But I mean, you worked incessantly.

You were flying missions every two to three days in addition to commanding the squadron.

Why was there such a high level of activity?

[Lonnie Bunch] Well, certainly there was a question

and a lot of questions in being there in Vietnam, we didn't look at what was going on

more in the higher levels, but just carrying out missions

that were required to support our presence

there in Vietnam. So it's the nature of military service, if you will.

[Ellen] Lonnie, how does the experience of African American airmen really change over this long time period

and then beyond Vietnam?

[Lonnie Bunch] I think what's crucial to understand is that the involvement of African Americans

in the military, especially in the Air Force, what you see is for the first time,

there are many people who are not African American who see the African American creativity

to see African American leadership. It's also the first time that there are many people. Remember, this is an America that's originally segregated,

even if it's not the law in some parts of the country. So the military is really the first time

that you see many black and white people coming together. So there's a kind of educational part

that comes through this. But then also the military has always been for African Americans, not just a job.

It provided a career when many places didn't provide careers. And so as you see that there's been great change,

you see the fact that there are more African American officers, but yet when you look at the number of generals,

the numbers are still very small. Even recent studies talk about that

when it comes to discipline, court-martials and the like, African-Americans are treated

disproportionately than others. So that in essence, the military isn't perfect,

but what it's done is it really has led to a dramatic change in the United States.

And so I will always argue, as the military goes, so goes America,

because it means that you see people who are then given the chance to lead based on their skill, not based on color.

You begin to see a military where people now begin to understand what happens when you come together

rather than when you're divided. So it's not perfect on any level. There are still the great tensions

that were there in Vietnam and beyond over race. But I think in some ways it was really one of the few places

where people crossed the racial lines to come together.

[Ellen] And for you Lonnie, as a historian, how does General McGee's story fit into this larger,

overall story of African Americans in US history?

[Lonnie Bunch] In some ways it's about demonstrating that you can do the job in a way

that opens the doors for you and for others. And the fact that General McGee was in three wars

in the military. So long as you outlined what he did, what that did was a model. It helped people believe that change was possible.

And within the context of this, there's no doubt that America is a fundamentally different country

because of the actions of people like General McGee.

[Ellen] General McGee, after such a long,

distinguished military career, how did that long military service and experience

shape your point of view and the rest of your life?

[General McGee] Well, as I said, fortunately for me, the fact that I was able to actively fly

and that is one of the key things that I pass on to young folks who are our country's future,

talking to them. Dream your dreams, but among them, hope you put your finger on something you enjoy doing.

You don't want to go to work every day, but not liking what you're doing because you didn't prepare it.

It's a focus, the mix is a pleasure to be able to pass on and mentor the youths of the day

who are our country's future. And we need more of that. There are too many youngsters out there

not being mentored. And then of course you gotta be very careful this day how you approach other people,

but it's key to many youngsters that are still out there not being mentored

and guided in the right direction. So we can't, if you give up hope, you're lost.

Never give up hope.

[Ellen] No, absolutely never. And one thing I've really been amazed by

is how the Tuskegee Airmen have spent so much of time post-service sharing your story.

Can you talk about how the Tuskegee Airmen have really dedicated themselves to inspiring the next generation?

[General McGee] Well, yes. The National Organization of Tuskegee Airmen

formed in 1972, but with its two purposes.

Preserve the history and what it's meant for our country,

how Tuskegee experience. And secondly, motivate our youth

in aviation, space career opportunities, period. Now, some folks out there, you know,

they'll come up and certainly the expansion of the education and the programs that they have

that are all important, but Tuskegee Airmen today, there's some 50 some chapters around the country

still with that focus. Preserve the history, pass it on, but train some youth and giving them the opportunity,

mentor the youth in the aviation and space career opportunities.

So it's been a win, win I might say, one that, there is enough in the history

to be preserved and passed on. And certainly there are many, many youth out there that need the mentoring, so the path is still good.

[Ellen] Well, I can tell you having been in the museum, General McGee, when children have come in and they talk to you, the looks on their faces

when they're realizing they're encountering a true American hero has been inspiring to me. Watching you inspire them has been inspiring to me.

Lonnie, before we go to questions, I wanted to ask you, in the National Museum of African American

History and Culture, the spirit of Tuskegee, which is a Stearman PT-13D used to train Tuskegee Airmen.

It hangs in the museum and I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit about that aircraft and how it came

to the National Museum of African American History and Culture.

[Lonnie Bunch]

When we were creating the museum, I knew the story of the Tuskegee Airmen was crucially important, but I also knew that while the story of the military,

of their training, I mean, of their fighting in Europe, a lot of that was gonna be at NASA. I wanted to tell the story of the training.

I wanted to give people a sense of the barriers they overcame. And I thought, how do we do this?

And then happenstance, we were talking to a young Air Force pilot who had basically purchased

a crashed airplane. And as he was gonna restore it, he began to do research and look at the tail numbers.

And it turned out to be one of the few planes still extent from PT-13 Stearman

that the airmen were trained in, in Tuskegee. And so he was so excited to learn that story.

He began to fly the plane around and meet with other Tuskegee Airmen around the country.

And I was like, we need to stop flying and make sure we bring that plane to the Smithsonian.

And ultimately we were able to bring the plane in as one of the most visible markers in the museum

of the military experience. And so this was really a way to pay homage to the Tuskegee Airmen, pay homage to Tuskegee,

pay homage to trainers like Chief Alfred Anderson. And that in essence, we wanted people to realize

that when you look up at that plane, what you're seeing is the possibilities of America

if you follow the leadership of people like General McGee.

[Ellen] Awesome.

Now we are getting a lot of questions from the audience. So I'm gonna go to the first question that's come in.

General McGee, what is your favorite aircraft to fly? And did you ever have a favorite plane?

[General McGee] Well (laughs). That's not an easy question to answer with technology.

Of the early planes, P-51 Mustang, but I always qualify with the Rolls-Royce Merlin engine.

Couldn't be beat. Wonderful opportunity. And we were able to perform such an important vision,

mission with that. With my active flying, I last flew the F-4,

but I got a chance to get an F-16 ride. Somebody said, how do you compare the F-16 to the F-4?

I said, you don't. Our youngsters need to understand where technology has taken us,

that those are not fair comparisons, if you will.

But they need to know what took place earlier, what it meant, what its importance,

where are we today, and where are we going tomorrow? Those are the things that our youth need to get

from being able to see that plane, talk to folks about it and then learn their position

for our country's future. And that's the way I look at it. It's a lesson step by step.

No one is better than the other.

[Ellen] Someone wants to know if you ever escorted the 303rd Bomb Group.

[General McGee] Oh my goodness.

[Ellen] This was '44. '45, I think.

[General McGee] Well, I'd have to go into the history that they've done at Maxwell field.

Possibly. What mission was I on, that type of thing.

Overseas, they did two tactical in '54, strategic missions.

How many more did we fly? And what days did I fly, and what days I didn't.

So it's hard to say.

[Ellen] I think he was worried.

He was hoping that they treated you well, if you did. (laughs)

[General McGee] Well, fortunately, although segregation went overseas, we were well-equipped and well taken care of.

So as I say, all is well that ends well.

Certainly another story.

[Ellen] What kind of relationships did the pilots have

with the technical crews?

[General McGee] Oh my goodness.

Key people. I used to fuss with some of the reporters. They said, why do you always come and talk to the pilots

when you oughta talk to some of the mechanics and technicians that make it possible for what we're doing.

That's often overlooked, but very key in any activity.

The folks that make the equipment and prepare it, those who use it and accomplish the mission,

very important relationships and certainly important to,

I'm not sure my very first few years I realized that, but a point in time came to be very important

and it changes your attitude and relationships for sure, with those that you work with.

[Ellen] Someone wants to know, and this is an interesting question. Was there ever a time where you felt

just really discouraged and you felt like giving up and why?

And I'm gonna add to that, why did you keep going? What made you keep going?

[General McGee] Well, I never had a point of discouragement and one that wanted to change. And as I said, because I love flying,

that ended up, I kept getting military assignments and rewarding opportunities.

And so I just never looked for something else. Took what came. And it was a tremendous opportunity

and experience to enjoy what I was doing. Enjoy the assignments that I got.

And all of them weren't what I might've asked for. Like, I think back when we had the preference statement,

I said, shall I be stationed on the West Coast. Never happened in my 30 years.

[Ellen] General McGee, and this is a question, again that, well, this one I think Lonnie and I are gonna be very interested in the answer.

To what do you attribute your longevity? At 100 years old, you're sharper than most people I know

who are much younger than you. So what's your secret and can you let the rest of us know?

[General McGee] I don't have a secret. All I can say is life has been a blessing (laughs).

That's not an easy one to answer, but it's things I learned along the way that may attribute to some of it.

When I was little, you know, learn to treat other people like you want to be treated.

And then what's those thing, it sticks and stones will break my bones

but words won't hurt me any. I didn't let people calling you names and so on determine what you wanted to do.

I had the fortune to be a Boy Scout. And I say, now, if everybody lived by the Scout laws,

the 12 Scout laws, we'd have a different country for sure.

On my honor, I'll do my best to do my duty to God, country, help other people, keep myself physically strong,

mentally awake and morally straight. And then look at those 12 Scout laws,

trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent.

Come to replace that. I don't think so.

[Lonnie Bunch] I was a Boy Scout. I don't remember all that, my goodness. (laughing)

[Ellen] Lonnie, why do you think it's key for the Smithsonian to diversify our own audience?

[Lonnie Bunch] Part of it is the wonders of the Smithsonian, that the Smithsonian gives you a way to understand

who we are as a nation, understand the opportunities of research, exploration and science.

So part of it is you want to make sure that you're sharing that with the broadest possible audience.

But the truth of the matter is it's so important because one, the Smithsonian

needs to model the America we expect, an America that's inclusive, an America that understands and embrace differences.

America that understands debate, an America that recognize it's made better

by having people who are different, but who are trying to achieve the same goal.

And I think for me, what is really important is that we don't have a monopoly on wisdom,

but when you bring in more diverse people, you're getting those points of view that allow you to move in directions

you could not have anticipated. And the bottom line is it's also the absolute right thing to do.

If we are a country that believes in fairness, then we should show that through the way

we are an inclusive workplace, that makes sure that everybody gets the opportunity

to be the best they can. And to recognize that we are all made better when we're standing on the shoulders of a diverse community.

- Amen (laughs).

[Ellen] General McGee, I have to ask this. Do you have a favorite artifact

at the National Air and Space Museum?

[General McGee] Well, yes. To be able to stand below a couple of the airplanes

you've got hanging there, and whether you start with the Wright brothers or go into some of the Warbirds,

it's a wonderful feeling to be able to realize that they're above your head or something you can touch.

It has meant so much to the growth of America in that sense,

in the military sense, but in the broader aviation sense.

And again, these things speak to opportunity. They speak to understanding of where America's been

and come from and there's so many things like that.

It's wonderful. Keep expanding. Don't let them go away because it's so important

to the youth that are coming along. And as I say, they're our country's future.

And so we need to assure that they get the opportunities

to visit the museums, understand the why and the wherefore.

[Ellen] We have a question asking if your experiences have ever been published in a book form

or made into a documentary.

[General McGee] I'm not aware of a documentary, but yes,

my oldest daughter a period back wrote my biography

and the name of the book is Tuskegee Airman: Biography of Then Colonel Charles McGee.

It's in its fifth edition.

Well, nobody has said, that's not a book to read. They still are asking for it and wish to pass it on.

So fortunately it was done and hopefully it provides an opportunity to those read,

to understand a little more of the circumstance, the history, and again,

to pass on information to our young folks.

[Ellen] I think it's gonna need a sixth edition.

A question for both of you from our audience. Do you think that mandatory military service

might do the country good in terms of understanding other races and ethnicities and increasing empathy?

General McGee, why don't we start with you?

[General McGee] I wish we had universal suffrage.

I think our country would be better off if everybody graduated from high school,

had two years of service, those that want to stay in the military, fine. Those that want to go and do whatever else

their direction carries them in the country. I think we'd be much, much, much better off,

but that's been my feeling, that universal suffrage wouldn't hurt us.

[Ellen] Lonnie, what about you?

[Lonnie Bunch] Yeah, well, I feel very strongly that one of the great strengths of a country

is its willingness to commit to serving others. So for me, it's both a two-year commitment,

let's say to the military or to a two-year commitment to doing and working in educational programs in inner cities.

I just think the notion of having mandatory service, where you put aside yourself

to sacrifice for a greater good is really a crucially important thing to do. So whether it's through the military

or through these other ways like VISTA, Volunteers in Service to America.

These are the kinds of things I think that make a country better.

- I'd like to expand my answer and take on,

'cause I agree with it's very broad and very important.

[Ellen] You know, General McGee, a lot of the times people will ask me this. I'm sure Lonnie gets asked it too.

And I think who were your mentors? Were there people that inspired you

in your military service? Because now I'm sure you mentor and inspire others today.

But I'm curious who your mentors were?

- I didn't try to keep up with them, I'm sure of that.

There were those that working for or with or things that I've learned along the way,

but I don't recall. And it just happens.

A lot of the history I can repeat and haven't forgotten.

Who was it with and some of the names. For some reason, I've never been good at remembering names.

[Ellen] You and me both, you and me both.

[General McGee] So many that I have touched base along the way that have been important to my life,

but I couldn't give you the name at this moment, if it even meant my life, unfortunately.

But this has happened that way.

[Lonnie Bunch] I'd love to say that the Tuskegee Airmen

in many ways were the mentors to me. As Ellen knows, my first job was at the Air and Space Museum.

And the person who mentored me was Lou Purnell, who was a Tuskegee Airman and curator.

And the very first article, scholarly article I ever wrote was about the Tuskegee Airmen, and the Tuskegee Airmen have always been a model for me

in terms of not letting obstacles stand in the way, of fighting for the greater good,

and of recognizing that if your life doesn't make somebody else's life better, you're not doing your job.

So I want to thank you and thank all the Tuskegee Airmen for the way you've transformed the country

and the way you've modeled what is the best of America for so many of us.

- We can always, again, the leaders that we had along the way, like Leo Davis' life experience

from the time he graduated from West Point, and to others who didn't change segregation,

but wanted to assure that the opportunity didn't disappear

that allowed us to participate and take our place in the future of our country, as it happened, along the way.

Very important.

[Ellen] That's very important. Thank you both so much. I'm afraid that's all we have time for tonight.

Again, thank you, thank you, thank you Brigadier General McGee and Secretary Bunch

for this extremely insightful conversation. And thank you to everyone who spent their Friday night

with us honoring this incredible aviator's career. Your dedication and support of the Smithsonian

goes far beyond any donations. You're the champions for the stories we tell

and understand the value that we bring to our visitors from near and far.

In the next few days, soon we'll have tonight's program available to all of you on YouTube and on our website.

And please share it with those in your life who may need a bit of inspiration

because we certainly had that tonight. And be on the lookout for more virtual programming

for the museum soon. Thank you all and good night.

- Thank you.

- Yep.

(uplifting music)